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Item5094: Hide some features before the 4.2 release

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AppliesTo: Component: Priority: CurrentState: WaitingFor: TargetRelease ReleasedIn
Extension TinyMCEPlugin Normal No Action Required TWiki:Main.GeorgSauseng n/a  

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I totally agree with TWiki:Main.KennethLavrsen, which says in Item4987, that we need us to focus on the errors for the new twiki release.

And some new features are not working as it should.

Therefore I would like to suggest to put here a list what should be hidden for the normal user.

As long as a feature isn't correct then it shouldn't be implemented in the 4.2 release

feel free to add some points to this list

  • Insert /edit image
    • don't show the appearance tab, alligment doesn't work and the size can be changed with the mouse
  • A lot features in the "insert new table"

All such things will be killers for new normal users. And as you know the first impression is very important!!!!!!!

-- TWiki:Main/FrederikBeun - 07 Dec 2007

Please expand on "a lot of features", giving as much detail as you can.

Please understand that I have a policy of not modifying the TinyMCE release that the TinyMCEPlugin depends on. The features you are describing are all features of that release, that cannot be supported because of the HTML to TML translation in TWiki. As soon as we modify the TinyMCE release code - as will have to be done to address this bug - we create a huge problem for anyone who tries to upgrade the TinyMCE version. So choose the features you want to disable extremely carefully!

See also Item5083

-- TWiki:Main.CrawfordCurrie - 08 Dec 2007

I just tried to create a new table with a lot of advanced features.

And it gets created as HTML - not TML.

We can now choose to look that in two ways.

  • It is bad - only TML capable tables should be created - HTML tables are evil
  • It is good - people are able to create that advanced table they want and the Wysiwyg editing user is probably going back and editing in wysiwyg again

The ideal would be that TMCE is capable of creating advanced table control in TML using TablePlugin and even EditTablePlugin tags. That is not going to happen in a very short term.

Meanwhile I am not so sure if disabling all the features that are possible in HTML is such a good idea?

We just have to be sure that it does not happen too easily that TMCE / WysiwygPlugin suddenly transforms a well working table in a TWiki Application into HTML. I have not tested that too intensively.

With the image tag there is more that does not work and the original Tiny seems in itself pretty buggy. E.g. try selecting an already inserted image and hit the image button and the preview covers the controls in FF. Hopefully upgrading Tiny itself in future will fix that and hopefully that upgrade will be possible.

What I am saying is that - I think - this is not a release blocker.

-- TWiki:Main.KennethLavrsen - 10 Dec 2007

To me HTML tables are not evil, and code can be mixed. But as it is now, our test team has the most problems with tables and as it is now they don't want to insert any tables anymore.

Our test team are keyusers, so I am thinking modal users will even have more problem and I don't want that they give up twiki for that reason. I will try to give you a list today of what problems they had on tables.

-- TWiki:Main.FrederikBeun - 10 Dec 2007

I talked once more to our people and the reason they don't use it anymore is

  • bug left aligment Item5079
  • Empty header field not in bold (probably same as Item5103 )
  • If background color changed, not visible in twiki
  • When copying from excel, table is ok, but not saved in twikitable (see also attached html code)
  • When the table was saved in html code (what was not meant), not easy to change it back to twiki code

So everything has indeed to do with the fact people are confusing. When are we getting a twiki table and when are we using a html table (which is not easy because, there are no predefined ones)

Isn't it possible to define a style to a table, eg. TWikiTable? and if they use this one, then it is converted to a twiki table and else not.

The remarks on the images are, there is a lot of information on the aligment, which would be great if it works and at the end you don't get anything from all this alignment. So for me hide this tab.

-- TWiki:Main.FrederikBeun - 10 Dec 2007

  • excel.txt: html code example of table inserted from excel

"Isn't it possible to define a style to a table" - yes, it is, but it doesn't help you. You still have to detect what sort of table it really is.

Note that the editor has a lot of controls for detecting attributes on tables to decide whether they are "TWiki" tables or not. But often it's not enough; the actual content of the table dictates whether it can be twikified or not (e.g. a table in a table).

The bottom line is that this will always be a problem as long as TML is used to store topics.

I'm sorry, I know there is some risk attached to this but I just can't see it as a release blocker. Downgrading to Normal priority. Perhaps if a few more people were fixing bugs in TMCE we would be able to raise the priority.

-- TWiki:Main.CrawfordCurrie - 10 Dec 2007

And this is not a WYSIWYG Plugin Problem ? How is this decision concerning Translation made? Parsing the Text and cause of unknown tags or tags which ar not in a translation rule somehow this part will not be translated ? So what happens now if its not possible to translate a part of the code. If this happens the complete table should remain HTML, this could be the only solution i think. Regards Georg

-- TWiki:Main.GeorgSauseng - 10 Dec 2007

Georg, I agree with you, otherwise it is to confusing.

-- TWiki:Main.FrederikBeun - 11 Dec 2007

I have already had a few times that the tag </table> and </img> was put at the end of the twiki raw code after saving, and then the problems start when we are again editing. I will try to reproduce it

-- TWiki:Main.FrederikBeun - 11 Dec 2007

Frederik, when you do, please open a new report (don't try and re-use this one)

Georg, How is this decision concerning Translation made - it's made by reference to a table defined in the WYSIWYGPLUGIN_STICKYBITS variable (described in WysiwygPlugin). This table defines the HTML features that "stick" i.e. block conversion of HTML into TML on save. You can define this variable yourself (e.g. in a topic you are experimenting in), and tune the values - if we can come to a common agreement on a setting, I'd be happy to check it in. The default value really just reflects my opinion on the matter.

-- TWiki:Main.CrawfordCurrie - 11 Dec 2007

From WysiwygPlugin#Features: For example, setting it to table=background,lang;tr=valign will stop the translator from trying to handle any table tag that has background or lang attributes, and any tr tag that has a valign attribute.

So it is possible to stop the translator when a table has non translateable information in it like the above if the value is set right.... I just tried to produce a table with colored rows and the HTML looks awful:-) Color information looks like "<tr style="background-color: rgb(219, 227, 27);

What is your default right now for WYSIWYGPLUGIN_STICKYBITS ?

I still dont understand why the table first did not save the color but in the third try with no change it did.

-- TWiki:Main.GeorgSauseng - 13 Dec 2007

I just tried to make a table once more. The last TinyMCE Plugin from December,19 works better now. Before i had Problems with window size in Firefox, now it works perfectly. The table Problem is still a problem. I did a new table and if i immediatly paintn a row the table remains a html table and this is fine. If i'm saving it in TML and reopen it i cant color it anymore... Regards

-- TWiki:Main.GeorgSauseng - 05 Jan 2008

I made a table |test|test|test fine TML o.k. Then i made a second row also fine TML . now i reopen it and wann paint the second row, i save it but its is still TML and color dissapears. So how can i use this wysiwyg_sticky to overcome this strange behaviour. this is definitely unpredictable behaviour in this TinyMCE Editor. Regards

-- TWiki:Main.GeorgSauseng - 15 Jan 2008

what i realized today is, if i insert an alignment (align=left) for the complete table the base line like here on the bottom (Edit Attach PrintVersion ...) end beside the table ? don't know why, as i deleted the alignment everything is nice again. Regards

-- TWiki:Main.GeorgSauseng - 15 Jan 2008

I did a bug report bout the following Problem, if i create a table and save it with TinyMCE, all disappear if i use the WYSIWYGPLUGIN_STICKYBITS Variable to keep table in HTML and stop conversion back to TML. If i try to reedit with TinyMCE i cannot write within the empty cells...

-- TWiki:Main.GeorgSauseng - 26 Jan 2008

I'm sorry, but I can no longer make sense of this report. Georg, please open reports with appropriate headlines for any bugs you find, I cannot deal with new reports added to of existing reports. If there is still a requirement to disable features in the WYSIWYG editor, please start a discussion in Codev; I just don't have time to try and untangle this topic.


This report will never lead anywhere.

Setting to no action

-- TWiki:Main.KennethLavrsen - 26 Jul 2008

Summary Hide some features before the 4.2 release
ReportedBy TWiki:Main.FrederikBeun
Codebase 4.1.2
SVN Range TWiki-4.3.0, Sun, 25 Nov 2007, build 15790
AppliesTo Extension
Component TinyMCEPlugin
Priority Normal
CurrentState No Action Required
WaitingFor TWiki:Main.GeorgSauseng

TargetRelease n/a

Topic attachments
I Attachment History Action Size Date Who Comment
Texttxt excel.txt r1 manage 2.1 K 2007-12-10 - 16:03 UnknownUser html code example of table inserted from excel
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Topic revision: r18 - 2008-07-26 - KennethLavrsen
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